Carlotta Releases

[mhofmann]

The Deserto Rosso 4k restoration is more disappointing : the grain is mostly frozen, moving like force field around people or moving objects, it's also clearly not as sharp as I'd expected (I'll have to check what was scanned, but if it was the OCN, then I can only guess the scanner was out of focus) and the grading seemed all over the place (it looks like the movie is full of color inconsistencies) and old-looking.

I completely agree. Just looked at the disc and potential sharpness and grading anomalies aside, the egregious grain management with frozen grain that's moving with and around objects is highly disappointing.

[therewillbeblus]

So far I have viewed in my calculation seven versions of DESERTO ROSSO on DVD & BR... A neverending story, I guess...

Image US DVD
Carlotta Fra v.1 DVD
Madman Aus DVD
Criterion US BR
BFI UK BR
Japanese BR
Carlotta Fra v.2 BR

So for a layman who has only seen the film under one condition, can you (and/or others) rank the available blu ray releases in order of preference? I’m curious to see if there’s a clear motivator to jump on the Japanese and/or BFI…

[ellipsis7]

Well, that's simple...

If you speak Italian & are a purist, go for the Japanese BR as arguably the best, but if you want a solid package with a decent transfer & English subtitles don't look further than the BFI...

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

Remember that the BFI is hampered by edge enhancement and that it has a greenish tinge throughout. But I prefer it to Criterion too, because it on the other hand looks too neutral and dullish.

I might buy the Japanese blu-ray because I've really wanted to re-watch this one for a long time, but I've been waiting for a proper restoration because those ten year old blu-rays just doesn't do it for me.

ellipsis7: Are you certain that the soundtrack on the Japanese BD is different from the Carlotta? Shouldn't it be the same when they come from the same restoration? The one on the Charlotta is just a simple DTS-HD Master 1.0. Is the Japanese perhaps 2.0?

Re. not being a native Italian speaker, neither am I, but I usually just rip the French subtitles and sync them (first and last sub) with some proper English subs from an earlier release and then play them back on a USB on my Oppo along with the blu. Usually there's not much more an hour's work doing this. The main task is helping your computer with the OCR. But SubtitleEdit does a good job almost by itself.

[rrenault]

Remember that the BFI is hampered by edge enhancement and that it has a greenish tinge throughout. But I prefer it to Criterion too, because it on the other hand looks too neutral and dullish.

I might buy the Japanese blu-ray because I've really wanted to re-watch this one for a long time, but I've been waiting for a proper restoration because those ten year old blu-rays just doesn't do it for me.

ellipsis7: Are you certain that the soundtrack on the Japanese BD is different from the Carlotta? Shouldn't it be the same when they come from the same restoration? The one on the Charlotta is just a simple DTS-HD Master 1.0. Is the Japanese perhaps 2.0?

Re. not being a native Italian speaker, neither am I, but I usually just rip the French subtitles and sync them (first and last sub) with some proper English subs from an earlier release and then play them back on a USB on my Oppo along with the blu. Usually there's not much more an hour's work doing this. The main task is helping your computer with the OCR. But SubtitleEdit does a good job almost by itself.

I'd like an upgrade over my Criterion blu-ray, as well, although it would cost me about 46 USD to order the Japanese BR to France, which is, admittedly, a lot to spend on an in print standalone 1080p disc. Heck, that's a price tag I'd struggle with for a standalone UHD. Hopefully we'll just get a UHD from either BFI or Criterion sooner rather than later.

I'll admit I first "discovered" the film through the Criterion blu-ray over a decade ago, and it quickly became a top 10-20 favorite of mine, so I have a sentimental attachment to the CC BR. It's also the very first blu-ray from any company or label I ever owned.

[tenia]

While I understand TWBB's view on "recontextualisation opportunities", I wish we wouldn't have 3 different gradings letting us wonder which one is the one closer to the movie's original aimed aesthetic, or if actually none of them even are close.

I just want to watch the movie as I should be watching it (discussions about "it's home video and not in theaters anyway" or "it's digital not film stock anyway" and other similar shenanigans aside).

[ellipsis7]

ellipsis7: Are you certain that the soundtrack on the Japanese BD is different from the Carlotta? Shouldn't it be the same when they come from the same restoration? The one on the Carlotta is just a simple DTS-HD Master 1.0. Is the Japanese perhaps 2.0?

I've had a chance to check this out...

As you say the soundtrack on the Carlotta BR is a simple DTS-HD Master Audio 1.0ch 48kHz 1.1Mbps...

However the soundtrack on the Japanese BR is a superior totally uncompressed LPCM 2.0ch 48kHz/16bit 1.9Mbps...

Which I think accounts for the quality differential..

Note the sound was restored in 2017 alongside the picture...

Restauro realizzato in 4K a partire dai negativi scena e colonna messi a disposizione da RTI-Mediaset. La correzione del colore è stata supervisionata presso il laboratorio Fotocinema dal direttore della fotografia Luciano Tovoli al fine di restituire al film il cromatismo ed il tono fotografico voluti all'epoca da Michelangelo Antonioni e Carlo di Palma. L'acquisizione ed il restauro del suono sono stati realizzati presso il laboratorio del Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia-Cineteca Nazionale sotto la supervisione di Federico Savina.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

ellipsis7: Are you certain that the soundtrack on the Japanese BD is different from the Carlotta? Shouldn't it be the same when they come from the same restoration? The one on the Carlotta is just a simple DTS-HD Master 1.0. Is the Japanese perhaps 2.0?

I've had a chance to check this out...

As you say the soundtrack on the Carlotta BR is a simple DTS-HD Master Audio 1.0ch 48kHz 1.1Mbps...

However the soundtrack on the Japanese BR is a superior totally uncompressed LPCM 2.0ch 48kHz/16bit 1.9Mbps...

Which I think accounts for the quality differential..

Note the sound was restored in 2017 alongside the picture...

Restauro realizzato in 4K a partire dai negativi scena e colonna messi a disposizione da RTI-Mediaset. La correzione del colore è stata supervisionata presso il laboratorio Fotocinema dal direttore della fotografia Luciano Tovoli al fine di restituire al film il cromatismo ed il tono fotografico voluti all'epoca da Michelangelo Antonioni e Carlo di Palma. L'acquisizione ed il restauro del suono sono stati realizzati presso il laboratorio del Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia-Cineteca Nazionale sotto la supervisione di Federico Savina.

Thanks for the info, ellipsis! Blu-ray.com states that the Japanese release is a BD-25 while the Carlotta is a BD-50. Is this correct? However, if the Japanese is barebones, it probably doesn't matter much. I'm curious about this -- if it actually has better sound and better grain rendering / compression, I'll order it and sell my Carlotta.

[ellipsis7]

I can see the Carlotta BR is a BD-50 but can see no indication for the Japanese BR - both are AVC encodes... A visual examination of the inner ring on the data side of the disc is inconclusive - there could be one or two sets of codes (BD-25 or BD-50)... The Japanese BR is Region A...

[tenia]

If the mix is the same for both the Japanese and French BDs, the difference between LPCM and DTS HD MA should be negligible. I've seen 1.0 LPCM tracks showing no visible spectral difference between the same track encoded in DD 192 kbps, and that's theoretically a much bigger encode difference.
However, the same source might have been modified specifically for one or the other release, akin to 2 different releases sharing the same picture restoration but one having specifically sharpened or DNRed it. This is more likely to generate an audible difference.

[therewillbeblus]

While I understand TWBB's view on "recontextualisation opportunities", I wish we wouldn't have 3 different gradings letting us wonder which one is the one closer to the movie's original aimed aesthetic, or if actually none of them even are close.

I just want to watch the movie as I should be watching it (discussions about "it's home video and not in theaters anyway" or "it's digital not film stock anyway" and other similar shenanigans aside).

Ultimately I agree with you- this is my default view (not only due to obvious reasons, but OCD symptoms, time and money restrictions, etc.) and I’ve only adopted this new one out of necessity to accept the situation on its terms and reframe it into some positive mold. But it’s absolutely more of a strategy to be less frustrated vs how I really feel deep inside or whatever. If someone said “This Is The Right Version” I’d happily buy it and close the book

[tasa]

As you say the soundtrack on the Carlotta BR is a simple DTS-HD Master Audio 1.0ch 48kHz 1.1Mbps...

However the soundtrack on the Japanese BR is a superior totally uncompressed LPCM 2.0ch 48kHz/16bit 1.9Mbps...

Which I think accounts for the quality differential..

Well the film has a mono soundtrack, so it's almost certain the Japanese audio is dual mono, meaning it's the same track just duplicated for both left and right channels. That would mean for comparison's sake that the real bitrate is half of what you say (~0.95 Mbps). You also left out that the Carlotta audio is 24-bit. In any case, it's possible you perceive the Japanese BD audio as better because it's playing as "stereo" when it's not true stereo. However, as tenia says, there could have been some processing done for either releases, we just can't know without any further analysis on the tracks themselves. But I think in the end there won't be a significant difference. I also personally would base my decision to purchase almost entirely on the picture quality. So screenshot comparisons would be nice...

[andyli]

I posted some caps from the Japanese IVC blu-ray before. Feel free to add matching shots from the Carlotta for comparison.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

I posted some caps from the Japanese IVC blu-ray before. Feel free to add matching shots from the Carlotta for comparison.

I did, and I guess this confirms that they are definitely from the same restoration. There is a somewhat blue tinge to the Carlotta, but if anything the Carlotta is less compressed (look especially at the detail level in screenshot 3). Could however be because of JPG compression of the images you uploaded.

IVC


Carlotta



IVC


Carlotta



IVC


Carlotta

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

I did a couple of additional comparison in uncompressed PNG. Note that the Carlotta is very much cropped in comparison with the others, and note especially how the lady's shirt in screenshot 3 and Richard Harris' shirt in the final screenshot turn from purple in BFI and Criterion to blue on the Carlotta. I'd say that Criterion is probably my favorite after doing these. It is indeed the dullest of the three, but the other's just seem off. The BFI is marred by edge enhancement and it looks too dark and green.

BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta

[tenia]

BFI


Criterion


Carlotta

This, to me, is a color-grading nightmare. Like : FFS, what are the movie's colors supposed to look like ? Is this scene supposed to be shifting towards green, magenta-ish or blue ? What color was Harris' coat ?

[MichaelB]

The basic problem is that everyone directly involved is now dead and there’s no rock-solid 100% definitive colour reference. So it really does come down to personal preference.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

This, to me, is a color-grading nightmare. Like : FFS, what are the movie's colors supposed to look like ? Is this scene supposed to be shifting towards green, magenta-ish or blue ? What color was Harris' coat ?

I took a couple of additional captures from that same scene, and the jump from light grey coat to dark blue coat is pretty striking. Also took some shots of Vitti in front of a supposedly white wall.

The trouble is, like you said in your original post, that the colors on the Carlotta simply look all over the place. In some scenes they seem spot on, while in other they feel completely off, giving a sense that Tovoli really just had a go at the entire film, taking ten minutes at a time, maybe over a couple of months? But it's really odd that someone didn't stop this during quality -- or common sense -- check.

At least, both the BFI and the Criterion each has their uniform look, but I still feel now that edge enhancement and dark green tint that drowns out details and colors kills the BFI while the Criterion, while looking a bit dull, would be the best "I don't know how the hell it should look"-way of seeing this film as it's so neutral. At least compared to the others.


BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

The basic problem is that everyone directly involved is now dead and there’s no rock-solid 100% definitive colour reference. So it really does come down to personal preference.

Wouldn't it be possible to use a well-preserved 35mm copy for reference, at the very least? There must be a lot of copies of this not very underground film sitting at archives around the world?

[Drucker]

FWIW, the print I saw in late 2019 definitely looked closest to the Criterion. Couldn't tell you if it was particularly well-preserved but it definitely lacked the light blue look of the BFI and had those grey/reddish walls.

[jsteffe]

The basic problem is that everyone directly involved is now dead and there’s no rock-solid 100% definitive colour reference. So it really does come down to personal preference.

Wouldn't it be possible to use a well-preserved 35mm copy for reference, at the very least? There must be a lot of copies of this not very underground film sitting at archives around the world?

From what I understand, both the Criterion and BFI used early release prints as references for their grading of The Red Desert, but the prints looked different. This is not uncommon. And unless a print was made with dye imbibition printing (i.e., Technicolor), the colors are not stable and are often faded to varying degrees. MichaelB or someone else can probably say more about this.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

The basic problem is that everyone directly involved is now dead and there’s no rock-solid 100% definitive colour reference. So it really does come down to personal preference.

Wouldn't it be possible to use a well-preserved 35mm copy for reference, at the very least? There must be a lot of copies of this not very underground film sitting at archives around the world?

From what I understand, both the Criterion and BFI used early release prints as references for their grading of The Red Desert, but the prints looked different. This is not uncommon. And unless a print was made with dye imbibition printing (i.e., Technicolor), the colors are not stable and are often faded to varying degrees. MichaelB or someone else can probably say more about this.

Makes sense. I've seen a 35mm copy of this too which again didn't quite look like any of these blu-rays. My question was more whether one would find a well-preserved copy of this that hasn't been projected countless times, if any, but probably that was what BFI and Criterion tried. The new restoration clearly has the strongest most technicolor'ish grading, but at the same time it feels like Tovoli has just been having a go at things at times, because it's so all over the place. I find it hard to believe that a copy of the film was used for reference.

[ellipsis7]

Another possible colour grading reference, production stills...

[Roger Ryan]

... Another possible colour grading reference, production stills...

Worth considering, but production stills will only show you what the natural colors looked like on set or on location, not what the director or cinematographer wanted the final image to look like.

[ellipsis7]

Antonioni's personal copy is held at the Cineteca di Bologna, but I don't know what state the print is now in...

Deserto rosso. Edizione cinematografica. Copia [1964]
ARCHIVIO
6 rulli
annotazioni: Positivo colore (3195 metri) su supporto safety/acetato
mascherino: 1 : 1,66
velocità di proiezione: 24 fotogrammi al secondo
Cineteca di Bologna WB.02.01.c.ANT
Sonoro (116 minuti)